Mark, please remind me again how a bag search of maybe one out of every 5,000 T riders in a given days is a deterrent to anything? You do realize, I hope, that if someone was intent on bringing contraband onto the T, that these checkpoints would be incredibly easy to avoid.

Thanks.

Umm...what? I own a car, and I use the T. You make no sense. Absolutely none whatsoever.

But, here I am trying ot reason with the guy who advocates targetting blacks and hispanics because "their children are criminals". Whatever that means.

You're so wrong it's not even funny. If you're going to be against a certain group or cause, at least know what they stand for and what they don't. The "Occupy" movements, from the beginning, has always spoken out about overreaching government and law enforcement policies. I think it's safe to say that they would not be protesting the lack of invasive personal property searches anywhere. It's one thing to disagree with a certain group or movement based on logical and well throughout out reasons. It's another to knee jerk and freak out over your own twisted perceptions.

Please tell me how checking the bags of 0.02% of T riders, at *one* of the thousands of ways to get on the T's subways, buses and commuter rail, is in any way, shape or form "security".

Thanks.

They're not randomly searching civilians, but searching riders of the MBTA (state governement run!) transit system. They're not frisking random people in the street. If you don't want to be searched don't ride the T! It's that simple...

Ben, the T is a *public* transit system. It belongs to you and I, the people of the Commonwealth. Just like the sidewalk you walk on and the street you drive down are *public* sidewalks and streets.

What is the difference between going through a gate to board the T and going through a toll booth on the Pike? I take it then you'd have no problem with a cop pulling you over as you're driving down the street and taking a look in your back seat and trunk, running some swabs over your bags? I mean, if you don't like it, don't drive on the public streets.

Right?

Wrong Saul you don't buy a pass to board the sidewalk. You don't have to ride the T. The T doesn't belong to you and I; its a mass transit system much like Amtrak which is subsidized by the Govt. Going through a toll and boarding a train? Are you serious with that? They're's pretty much no similarity... If I was driving and a cop wanted to take a look in my trunk or glovebox I would have no problem with that; I have nothing to hide.

Ben,

You are ignorant. You having nothing to hide is not the point. The 4th ammendment (of the constitution, a document you've obviously never read) protects us from unreasonable search and seizure. So you let any old law enforcement official search your car. They tell you to sit on the curb and stay put. Meanwhile, Mr. Official is corrupt, and plants illegal contraband in your glove box. Have fun in prison contemplating the 4th ammendment and how it protects us.

>> If I was driving and a cop wanted to take a look in
>> my trunk or glovebox I would have no problem with that

A cop knocks on your door and asks whether he can come in to look around as part of an investigation of burglaries in your neighborhood.

You would let him in, right, Ben? You just said you have nothing to hide, after all.

On. Saturday afternoon?

Hy John, were you worried about being blown up on the T between 1995 and 2006, when there were no checkpoints on the T? If not, why not?

I'm sure Mark would be fine with it if it made him feel all warm and fuzzy and safe from the big evil terrorists lurking around every corner and in every shadow.

Solid point. It's all about perception to the fearful masses. All they need are points to be met: 1.) It's happening to someone else and not them, and 2.) They get the perception of increased safety.

They're not stopping and searching random people, but searching people riding state governemtn run transit. Don't want to be searched, don't ride the T.

Ben, see my comment above. How is riding the T any different than walking or driving down a public road?

Or do you own the street where you live?

Ok, Ben. Then I support random traffic stops by police and full vehicle searches since you're driving on government run roads. No probable cause. Reason reason to stop and search you other than you're daring to use the roads YOUR TAX DOLLARS PAY FOR. Don't want to be searched, don't drive a car.

Matthew and Saul,

I have an easy soultions for you guys... stop smoking grass or whatever you're trying to hide from the transit police. The "government" doesn't own roads either and they're not really paid for by you and I unless you're paying excise tax etc. for the most part. Also you don't have a "civil right" to drive or use the T. These are privileges. It's much different than walking down the street. Smarten up guys.

Ben,

You are a fascist. I work for a federal law enforcement agency and have been doing so for 12 years. Only a fascist, far right wing maniac uses the "if you have nothing to hide" reasoning to support their love of heavy handed, overreaching police tactics. The government absolutely owns the roads. Who is responsible for maintaining and repairing them? Exactly. Smarten up. We pay for the roads, the T, and yes, the sidewalks. And the fourth ammendment protects us from being detained or searched without probable cause. Do you know what I'm referring to? The constitution? You know, that sacred document the right wing is trying to subvert?

Matthew,

You don't have a civil right to ride the train, or drive. These are privileges that can be taken away, completely different from a person just walking along the sidewalk being searched. Also you're certainly the "level-headed" one that takes to name calling... Grow up

Hey, if the show fits. I'm just calling you what you are.

Yes, a driver's license can be taken away. However, without probable cause you ucan not be searched. I'm right and you know it. But, considering the fact that you feel that privacy and individual freedom are myths, then you will refuse to see that I, along with those on the side of freedom, are right.

Mark: There's a crime wave in your neighborhood and a cop knocks on your door and asks whether he can come in and take a look. You know, just to make sure you're not connected to the crime wave. Of course you're innocent, and you do want to see the crime wave subside.

Do you let the cop in?

So did I somehow miss the news of the daily bombings on the T?

I only hear about daily breakdowns because of deferred maintenance and underfunding. No bombings though. Did I somehow miss the news?

Wrong, my little Droog, YOU are under observation for a state-sponsored "culling" project to eliminate retards who argue on the internet.

You don't have a "civil right" to drive or use the T. These are privileges. It's much different than walking down the street. Smarten up. If it's unconstitutional to be searched here is it also to be searched boarding a plane?

Regarding airports: See US v. Davis (1973). It's the court case that carves out an exception to the Fourth Amendment to permit a limited search of plane passengers for weapons.

But comparing airports to the T is silly. Mass transit systems are extensions of the streets and sidewalks, and in the case of buses and the Green Line, you board right from the street. There's no "sterile" area inside the T. These checkpoints exist for at most a few hours at one of the thousands of entrance-points onto the T. It would be like having a checkpoint at only one terminal of one airport for two hours a day, nationwide.

Put away the Constitutional issues: These bag checkpoints on the T are a colossal misuse of money that serve no security purpose at all.

They're not randomly searching people on the street. If you don't want your bag searched, turn around and don't ride the train that day. Are they protesting the NSA at the airports too? Don't blame the Govt. blame al qaeda.

You're right, Ben.

After the 15th time that Al Qaeda bombed a T train, it was finally time to do something.

Silly me.

Oh, wait. Al Qaeda has never attacked a subway train. So remind me again why we have those searches?

Ben Johnson,

To day you say, "If you don't want your bag searched, turn around and don't ride the train that day". Tomorow it's, "If you don't want your bag searched, turn around and don't use the sidewalk that day." Then one day it's, "If you don't want your bag searched, don't leave your house." Then finally, "If you don't want your bag searched...then tough sh--. We're coming in."

Also, do some research on how the Nazis seized power after Hitler's appointment as Chancellor. They burned the Reichstag, blamed communists, and imposed overreaching, heavy handed policies to control the public. And you are advocating the exact same thing by dropping trying to scare people with the terrorism boogey man.

Obama has been no friend to the 4th Amendment. You may recall that in his State of the Union two years ago he joked about airport pat-downs.

Don't care. Have a good one.

Ben, do you know where else has been a target of terrorists around the world?

Restaurants
Department stores
Theaters
Schools
Malls
Hotels

Clearly we need checkpoints before we go out to eat, go shopping, spend the night in a new city, see a play or take a class.

I mean, wouldn't that be the responsible thing to do?

I will also point out that both the London and Paris subways were attacked in 1995. in 1994 a crazed guy firebombed a NY subway car. (Keep in mind that this was the same time period as the Oklahoma City and World Trade Center bombings.)

So how, just how, did the T manage for over a decade without bag checkpoints when it was clear by the mid-90's that there are crazy people out there willing to kill us?

Wow, you're dense. I was comparing your mentality to that of the mentality of the people who allowed groups like the Nazis to come to power.

Saul,

You're pointing out too much logic. In order for heavy handed policing to work, logic and facts must take a back seat to fear.